Bleed and Fire Damage... Really DQ?

Battle Arena
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@Griffin012: if the majority of players cannot find something else to win with besides bleed then I don’t know what to say. I made it to the top twice NOT using bleed and fire. The first time was with Spell Sword, something NOBODY uses. The second was a simple sword and board with damage and damage mitigation. I guess I am a sucker for not taking the easy road.

I’ve played multiple games in my tenure of gaming, and in all of them EXEPT DQ, Damage over Time is to supplement Primary Abilities and together they make up the total damage. You can kite using DoTs and other tactics. Here in DQ Bleed and Fire Dots are no longer DoTs, but one shot kills. How anyone finds that fun is beyond me. I laughed at it.

I understand the current business model of the Battle Arena doesn’t rank up there for ShinyBox. Their money comes from the Map Farmers who need to purchase abilities and items to farm map 49344934938459348. There is no money in the Battle Arena to be made so they really don’t have any rush or need to change the current damage in Batlle Arena, or they just don’t have the ability. Maybe if they had better math personnel it might be balanced. But in Battle Arena’s current form, it is a joke. If you are interested in pvp like I am, there are other alternative games out there besides this one. Basically you either join the crowd like Nord here or not play at all.

43

I agree with u, damage over time is to powerful in this game and not only fire, but it’s the only way to kill those tank warriors(and sometimes even rogues and mages) with 100k and more hp, cmon there is even 1million kraker war in arena now, this all should be nerfed or balanced somehow, I reached 2700rank in division 1 and it’s so boring everyone is using fire, battles in legend league were much more interesting

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Some of my best matches were the legend arena.

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Yeah I agree with you there but my point was more that it’s fairly balanced with the other elements at lower ranks so nerfing the fire and bleed just directly would make all of them completely superfluous while it absolutely needs a nerf cause yeah it’s just dumb and I refuse too join the crowd it’s completely unfun as you’ve said I’m gonna stick too my pure defense thunder build

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46

Its easy to balance. Just have caps.

Hps 50000
Dots 500
Dots critical 1000
Dots deadly 2000
Etc etc

Those are some made up numbers for examples not what I was thinking they should be.

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47

You actually have a really really good point there if you just hard capped the strength of fire and bleed dot it’s be a really quick and easy fix that doesn’t really affect lower rank fire and bleed users I like that good idea :smile:

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Let’s take Bikini Bottom, and move it over there!

I agree, actually, but is there a “correct” way to fix it?

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49

Hehehehe unfortunately no it may take quite a few different attempts too try and balance it the “correct way”

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If the game was set up like the usual MMO, PvP would be easily balanced. You have to take into account, however, that, no matter what is done, people will complain about something.

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U r right, they are always will be op builds, but nerfs and changes in balance and meta will encourage people to make different builds, meta just gotta change all the time, otherwise people will get bored of game like most already did because of fire dots everywhere in the arena

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52

Arena is boring anyway.

Adventure Time.

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Yup nord :smile: I think the main thing that was kinda the cause of the whole fire problem in the first place is kinda that dungeon quest up until 2 patches ago has been a purely pve game and we may not think about it much but the most powerful pve abilities in dungeon quest are always dot’s and that just ended up transferring over too arena

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54

Complaining about player x beating player y is one thing, making light to a extreme imbalance is far from a complaint.

If one player had a build that was unique and challenging, that is one thing. 95% of the Battle Arena running Fire, Bleed, Skulldraga, Auto Run Away, Crit and Deadly is another. And it isn’t class related: Warriors, Rogues, and Mages are all doing it. Throw in Enigma… you get the idea.

It also begs a question to exactly what they were testing prior to the patch. I mean, someone had to stop and think what this would do to the battle arena. Whoever thought it was a bright idea to have an ability to cast Torrent under someone’s feet no matter where they are at on the map must be the same person who does the math; because it doesn’t make sense. Just my opinion.

EDIT: Just checked my daughter’s phone for laughs. Everyone in the top 23 except my account and cronos are using fire bleed with either skulldraga and / or torrent. so 4 abilities lol. Somehow I feel I am wasting my time, but maybe it will do some good if Shinybox ever decides to pay attention to the battle arena.

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I apologize for getting to this thread a bit late, I’ve been quite busy lately.

Now first of all, I’m getting the impression from these posts that we don’t care about balance or battle arena because it doesn’t make us money. This is far from the truth (and a tad bit insulting). You have to realize that we spent over a year of development time on Battle Arena, and spent a large amount of time trying to get both PvE and PvP balance coexisting together. Of course we’re not perfect, but we do care. We had a large amount of feedback during the testing process and tried our best to address each of the major concerns.

One of those major concerns was definitely Bleed and Fire. We wanted to address this but didn’t want to kill the damage of this combination for PvE. Our solution after a large amount of heated debate was Perseverance. For the investment of 2 affix slots, you can be 100% immune to both Fire DoT and Bleed assuming you get decent rolls. Now, if that needs to be 1 affix for total immunity or just higher numbers per affix that’s something we can discuss further, but 2 felt fair at the time.

The overall idea for most balance fixes is that we don’t want to make any more special rules for PvP than we already have, so we try to provide tools to deal with what’s determined to be problems (Immunities, Trophy Affixes, Moving Power to Hero Skills, Special Affixes, etc).

I’m not sure how the perception of us has changed to devs that only care about addressing areas of the game that are “the most profitable”, but please look at our patch note history over the years and let me know if that’s the case! Personally I think it’s an absurd idea to develop games this way. Keep in mind that we’re not some megacorp pushing out energy timer apps trying to maximize profits. We’re a few friends who’ve been making games together for awhile, that prefer making games that we’d actually want to play ourselves.

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56

Isn’t perseverance scaled down so u will need more slots than 2 for 100% immune

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@SteigerBox: Appreciate the response. I certainly didn’t expect one, but never the less, it is appreciated.

As far as the balance for the Battle Arena goes, I guess I am confused more now than ever. You made comment to Perserverance, but please realize that a 50% Perserverance in the PVP area is only good for about 10% when viewing one’s profile after a match. I feel weird mentioning this, as everything is scaled down to level 20 and I figured you’d factor that in. (or supposed to - bleed fire seem to be the exception or at least to me they do) I had all six pieces equipped at one time with Perserverance and I was still getting critted for 20K.

The ability doesn’t work, so does a multitude of other abilities in the battle arena. A guide of some sort certainly would be nice to aid in knowing what works and what don’t as well as AI setup and other much needed information for your game. I am not the only one who has made mention of a guide for the battle arena.

Also, why not have caps? You have caps for just about everything defensive on the boards, why not for other areas like health, offense, bleeds, dots, duration of tics, etc? Or, simply remove the restrictions so we can get massive defense. Make bleeds and dots blockable / dodgeable. I could list a multitude of other much needed changes, but not sure how welcomed they’ be based on your response.

There is a reason why pretty much everyone is running the same cookie cutter setup. Fire bleed and skulldraga are hitting for way too much damage. The numbers, math, and screenshots don’t lie. The Cererbreal Vortex ability is another one that has me and others scratching their heads. I am certainly not the minority on this, as even your most decorated veterans have made mention that the abilities are over the top. In the end, your customers just want a fun game to play, and in battle arena’s current form, it isn’t. Believe it or not, there are players who prefer the battle arena over map farming as we don’t have multiple hours to sit on the phone farming maps. It was nice to fire up DQ, jump in battle arena, and play a few matches here and there throughout the day. In its current form, that no longer is an option.

Once again, just m opinion. thanks for your time and your response.

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I think this was his answer to that:

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That’s absolutely correct, I’m forgetting my own implementation :sleepy:

I’m glad you brought it up then since that’s definitely a bug if true! I’ll make sure this is working as intended in the next patch. I’ll also look at increasing the min/max rank of this affix so you don’t need to invest 6 slots for it, thinking about that now it was a silly expectation to require that much investment.

What else would you like further information on? AI Setup has been on my list of articles to write, and if there’s anything else I’ll try to get it all in one go.

I try to only cap stats that could pose a problem in PvE if left uncapped. The core of DQ is PvE (and again, not from a monetary standpoint, but that’s all there was to DQ for 2 years before BA came) so we try to do what’s right first with that in mind. If it can be argued that any of these stats are an issue for both modes, then absolutely I’ll look to cap!

Which restrictions did you have in mind?

Making bleeds/dots blockable or dodgeable seems a bit odd mechanically. The initial hit dealt to your hero is already mitigated once (reduced through armor, resists, block/dodge chance etc). Being partially mitigated again would be a bit odd.

I don’t want to give the impression in any scenario that we don’t listen to or welcome feedback! It may not be obvious, but most of the changes we make happen because we get feedback from our players and act on it. Even if I feel a certain way about an issue and argue my point, I’ll do my best to make the right decision for the game regardless of my feelings.

Our last major patch we released just over a month ago, 2.1, had a large list of changes directly aimed at addressing the major balance issues in BA (at the time). Of course, it introduced new problems through the addition of new sets that haven’t had a lot of testing time, especially in arena (Cerebral Vortex for example).

I’m not sure why you would think I wouldn’t believe this. My best guess is that you’re not seeing immediate action, and therefore we must be ignoring these issues with Battle Arena. Let me assure you this is not the case, and again that we care about all aspects of the game.

Moving forward, let’s continue this conversation with the assumption that of course we want DQ to be as fun as possible and that we will continue to work towards improving it. If we’re somehow giving the impression otherwise, that’s my fault.

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60

Big Brother has spoken.

And he’s provided some valuable points, too.

To stem off of the money interest of Shiny that you brought up, @Knutz: have you ever contacted support for missing items, etc? They are extremely generous. If they were interested solely in money, they wouldn’t return your items and more. Do you see anything in the store except vanities and boosts? If anything, Shiny is aiming for fun, not monetary gain.

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61

Sorry @steigerbox: I don’t have the quote post thing down so bear with me.

  1. that is good news on perserverance. i’d certainly like it to be a viable option to mitigate the current meta of fire bleed as everyone is using it. that is why I used spell sword before this patch. the campers were sitting ducks with meteor. being able to counter other abilities would certainly provide a better selection of builds. kind of like paper rock scissors. if rock beat all, who’d want to play paper and scissors?

  2. Other info that would be helpful to new people would be the basic structure of what works and what doesn’t, how resists and armor work for players in the battle arena, as well as the overall mechanic of what yards is in relation to what abilities work at what range and the range of your map as you use yards on your ai setup. also, somehow players have master the ability to park their toon in the exact location in the middle of the map or at the base of the map. how does that work?. furthermore, your practice arena is pretty much pointless after common league. when I go in to test a build and find my opponent has 2000 hps and 50 power… well it’s not useful. my record went from a 7 to 1 ration to 3 or 4 to 1 as I had to test everything on the live server. not that records matter, but I just mention that for emphasis on needing a better practice arena and build testing area. having builds like cronos, emman, kissmyaxe, rolling, refia, clogon, etc etc in the practice arena would be one sweet deal. also, maybe a stat page on exactly how far you are to the caps of what you already have listed would help. and how does the sets work in the battle arena? are they scaled down to 20? I ask because when you cllick on your profile, you can’t check what the green set amount is doing, you can only guess. I understand that this information would be remedial for veterans, but to us new guys and gals, it would provide dividends on performing in the battle arena.

  3. Fair enough on caps.

  4. Fair enough on blocking dodging bleeds.

  5. I went back and read some of the past patch notes. keep in mind I just started playing in December, so the information that I ask for or request is at the hands of a newbie. also, it seems a ton of content was added to the game such as battle arena and changes that would have been nice if a guide was available. that everything battle arena post is way way way past providing information. this goes along with number 2, having guides and information on what I mentioned would go a long way.

  6. fair enough on the last part I guess. maybe you are right, i was expecting results too fast. after reading it seems I am the minority when it comes to time available for farming and the likes, so that certainly has a part in it I guess. I have provided almost 100 dollars to your game for support so it isn’t like I completely think the game is trash. I have taken a break and my daughter keeps the game active. I certainly have high hopes in coming back and it seems my daughter is having fun, so really this is kind of a moot thread at this stage. I do hope the information I provided will in the end provide a better game for all.

and lastly to my buddy @skaul: SWOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHH! That was the sound of anything I typed that you just commented on flying over your head at 250 mph.

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